Curse

ShadowStorm · Mar 15, 2006, 01:15 PM // 13:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by ange1

they need to have randome skill sets for monsters =D

If no one else has seconded this idea yet, I do. This would be a very big step towards making PvE more interesting.

Now don't get me wrong. It can't be completely random; then the monsters wouldn't have any combos to use against you. But if each type of enemy had like 3-4 different builds it could run, that would be very cool. Running into a group of mobs that had 2 mesmers, 1 warrior, 1 monk and 2 eles only to find out that one mesmer is domination and the other is illusion based and one of the eles is Air spike while the other is a fire nuker would be refreshing. And it would be more realistic.

Poison Ivy · Mar 15, 2006, 01:20 PM // 13:20

Spread the butter over the entire piece of the bread

felinette · Mar 15, 2006, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

Well if they go PvP centric and actually force players to fight in PvP matches to get through mission areas I'll go to Gamestop and get my money back on my preorder right now.

I haven't preordered for this reason. I want to see if there's a significant amout of forced PvP. If there is, I won't be buying Factions, and I'm a regular, dedicated PvE player who would have gladly bought Factions otherwise. I don't mind one or two quick forced PvP sessions (a la moving from pre to post), but anything beyond that and I'll keep my money.

Did anyone else read the recent PC Gamer article about Factions? In it, Anet says they noticed a lot of people want to keep playing with their PvE characters, so they decided to create Factions and introduce more PvP. Say what?

Forcing people who like PvE to move to PvP is nuts. It won't happen. We'll move to another game, instead (especially given that Oblivion is being released just a month before!)

frickett · Mar 15, 2006, 03:58 PM // 15:58

PVE rules
PVP rules, (I'm just not as good at it, but I'm getting better.)

Xenrath · Mar 15, 2006, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Awful lot of people working for Anet in this thread, telling us what Anet's objective is...

Jas D · Mar 15, 2006, 04:16 PM // 16:16

I also only do PvE, considering it's the most beneficial. What do you get out of PvP? Fame? Whooptiedoo, I could care less about rank personally. People who do HA take things serious, saying "rank 3+ only" or whatever they do, I don't stick around for that crap. Maybe that's why we never hardly have favor during the day.

Cymboric Treewalker · Mar 15, 2006, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Personally with several other MMOs coming out - DDO, Middle Earth, and Warhammer I can see Anet losing many, many players if the PvE is not there.

You can PvP in World of Warcraft... You can PvP in EQ2... I personally like the way PvE/PvP has been implemented in GW better than those two.

There is no PvP in DDO so the comparison would not be fair... but you can sneak, turn invisible, disarm traps, etc... roleplay opportunities abound.

I would love for GW to add a little more flavor to PvE - but that would mean adding skills that only have use in PvE -- then again their are several skills that to me only have value against other players in PvP... so... well... yeah they should be able to do it.

wolfe2dale · Mar 15, 2006, 04:33 PM // 16:33

I believe Gaile has addressed this by stating that Anet are concerned about losing the pve'ers to other games.

So I wouldn't lose hope yet, I have a lot of faith in Anets abilities to learn from previous mistakes.

WasAGuest · Mar 15, 2006, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Thom's whole post is good and I agree with some points, but here's some thoughts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

Few points:
1)Forcing people to play PvP and integrating PvE and PvP worlds are significantly different.

Possibly; however, if any quests or missions pit a PvE only player against another player or group of players, they (we) are being forced into PvP. Something they (we) do not want.
If, on the other hand, a proup of PvE'er are holding an area from a group of mobs in one instance and another group of PvE'ers are doing the same - thus they are competing against each other to out last the other... that's slightly different. A huge issue with me is that I don't find the PvP side of the game (most games these days) any fun at all. I did the whole Doom, Quake, HL, CS... etc years ago. I'm burned out on it and want nothing to do with it. I want to log in, pit a unique build (junky or not) against the AI, enjoy my time doing it, gain a reward or fail at trying. I don't want to have to be build x/y to be able to gain what I want.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

3)There has been attempts to mimick pvp and pve. The Zashien Challenge would be the best example, although it is done in a boring fashion. Have any PvEers tried this? Did you find it challenging? Does the lack of a story kill the challenge?

This was so bad, it reminded me of early Quake III Team Arena. A simulated PvP with really bad AI on both sides. I was so bored after the second match I quit. If this is what Factions bases a lot of their content on, then I will be very disapointed. Note: Thom never said this was the case, he mearly asked if PvE'ers have tried it and what we thought about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

4)What makes PvP interesting and PvE less interesting in my book is the element of the unexpected. In PvE I know what I will face and someone can tell me exactly how to win. Even the best PvP teams have losses and upsets happen because no one has seen everything. Sure certain builds have more success, but the handbook to pvp is very vague.

I feel just the opposite on this one. I have watched several PvP matches (trying hard to grasp what I seem to be missing) and it seems that the majority of players use the same builds over and over. Why? Because they work I guess. PvP seems to me to be the same thing over and over again, while PvE could be the same thing as well, it's not; because we are able to try different builds out. Doing this allows more freedom - unless you happen to PuG these days... we wont go there though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

6)I really don't know what type of objectives would interest a PvE player. You get better competition in PvP, so from a skill standpoint that is where ther game is. There is a limit to how much stuff you will get from PvE since Anet has set up a basic standard for such things. The most interesting thing would be the ability to unlock more areas, which is a long the lines of what Factions will do. Doing certain quests will also have more global impact and character impact.

And therein lies the problem. I log in to play or finish mission X and I can't cause I am waiting for PvP team to win. As it is now, I find it fine. FoW and UW are end game things to do. But, if Factions does this early on in an attempt to get more people into PvP so favor or territory acn be gained, I fear it will have the opposite effect. I for one, will load up Oblivion and try again later. I'll continue doing that untill I give up and eventually lose interest in the game.
PvE players, for the most part, aren't looking to compete against each other. In fact, I find that most PvE'ers that attempt to compete with other PvE'ers are refered too as griefers. PvE'er are looking for the next big "boss" to take down for that next cool looking sparkling thing. Fame, territory, it's all for nothing as far as PvE'ers are concerned... unless it, effects our play style which I just mentioned.

As I stated before, it's all speculation on my behalf. These are just my concerns about the game and the release of Factions.

PS. Sorry about the "unlocking" on the PvP side of things. I don't PvP and wasn't aware of the changes made to unlocking of the skills. On my defense, I did state, I don't PvP and have no desire too.

Cymboric Treewalker · Mar 15, 2006, 05:16 PM // 17:16

WasAGuest - well said.

If Factions ends up being, as many fear, a bait-n-switch to PvP I fear many people will leave. I too feel the PvE crowd has greater numbers and their departure would spell the end to the game series.

Oblivion is out there...
DDO is out there...
Warhammer will be here soon.
Middle Earth Online will be here soon...

Loralai · Mar 15, 2006, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasAGuest

And therein lies the problem. I log in to play or finish mission X and I can't cause I am waiting for PvP team to win. As it is now, I find it fine. FoW and UW are end game things to do. But, if Factions does this early on in an attempt to get more people into PvP so favor or territory acn be gained, I fear it will have the opposite effect. I for one, will load up Oblivion and try again later. I'll continue doing that untill I give up and eventually lose interest in the game.
PvE players, for the most part, aren't looking to compete against each other. In fact, I find that most PvE'ers that attempt to compete with other PvE'ers are refered too as griefers. PvE'er are looking for the next big "boss" to take down for that next cool looking sparkling thing. Fame, territory, it's all for nothing as far as PvE'ers are concerned... unless it, effects our play style which I just mentioned.

As I stated before, it's all speculation on my behalf. These are just my concerns about the game and the release of Factions.

PS. Sorry about the "unlocking" on the PvP side of things. I don't PvP and wasn't aware of the changes made to unlocking of the skills. On my defense, I did state, I don't PvP and have no desire too.

I agree completely. However, I will go one step further and explain my main concern. First let me reiterate that this is based on speculations that we are all making from what tidbits we have gotten from Anet.

I am a quest fanatic. I do not feel like my character is complete unless I have completed all of them. With the current set up of UW and FoW time being based on geographical area, and there being a small amount of countries competing, chances are that eventually you will gain favor and be able to complete quests in said area. With what the Factions set-up is looking to be, the number of competitors in going to be increasing hundred-fold. Alliances of 2-10 guilds...wow, that could be hundreds. If I will be unable to complete quests, eventually I too will be disheartened.

And again, I really feel like there will be a large number of small guilds left out of alliances, or that choose not to ally, as their guilds are family or friend based and they feel more comfortable playing that way.

Again, this is all based on what we "think" Factions will be like. My decision has been to hold-out on purchasing until I get some feedback from those who are playing. That way I get the opportunity to get some good reviews from people I trust or that share the same game-playing style that I do.

xxSilhouette · Mar 15, 2006, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cymboric Treewalker

WasAGuest - well said.

If Factions ends up being, as many fear, a bait-n-switch to PvP I fear many people will leave. I too feel the PvE crowd has greater numbers and their departure would spell the end to the game series.

I agree, There are a lot of PvE only players out there, Thats why in a way i doubt that they will switch it greatly, beacuse a lot of players would stop playing.

fallot · Mar 15, 2006, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Wow, it looks like a very large number of GW players dont enjoy competition at all. I bought the game to be competitive, which is a reward in itself. Understanding the mechanics of GW and adapting to an every-changing environment is a lot more fun than any shallow PvE reward.

So is there anyone here that would buy Factions just for the new skills ?

Dazzen · Mar 15, 2006, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by fallot

Understanding the mechanics of GW and adapting to an every-changing environment is a lot more fun than any shallow PvE reward.

I think it's mainly because when you're entering a mission (wich supposedly you have done at least once before) you are well aware of the environment. I mean, you know exactly what kind of monsters you are going to face, what skills they use, and maybe even their patrol routes. Now if that wasn't as predictable, you would have to adapt to the situation.

To answer direclty your question, i'm not really into competition for GW and i prefer questing to save up for a 15k armor set that would look good on my character, rather than farm fame (or faction) all day long. Mind you i don't dislike PvP, it's fun to do from time to time and refreshing

For the 'competition PvP' i prefer other games like soldier of fortune (wich is an FPS).

Cymboric Treewalker · Mar 15, 2006, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by fallot

Wow, it looks like a very large number of GW players dont enjoy competition at all. I bought the game to be competitive, which is a reward in itself. Understanding the mechanics of GW and adapting to an every-changing environment is a lot more fun than any shallow PvE reward.

So is there anyone here that would buy Factions just for the new skills ?

Wow... what a load of crap you just spilled.

For you PvE might be shallow, but you should not make that assumption for everyone.

PvP to me is the uber shallow... people need to put other people down to feel good about themselves.

WasAGuest · Mar 15, 2006, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by fallot

Wow, it looks like a very large number of GW players dont enjoy competition at all. I bought the game to be competitive, which is a reward in itself. Understanding the mechanics of GW and adapting to an every-changing environment is a lot more fun than any shallow PvE reward.

So is there anyone here that would buy Factions just for the new skills ?

I like this post. Here's why: It is the pure opposite of how most PvE'ers think. To us, Fame and Rank are shallow, while seeing our characters through the story line (while thin at best) is a reward. Getting that weapon or buying that armor we want (since we can't just insta-build with the best we've unlocked) is another part of it.

Buying Factions for the skills? Yes and No. Skills are the basis of the characters, since exp means practically nothing in the game. Skills are part of the rewards for doing quests though, so I would think most PvE'ers would expect them, but not purchase the game for just the "skills" rewards.

Another reason I liked this post, it shows how diverse the game allows for it's player base. And I, for one, think that's cool.

Someone early mentioned PvE vs PvP attitude. I think part of that comes from many in game changes or potential changes. As I follow mainly PvE I have seen many changes asked for and for each person that says "No" to the idea (reguardless of what it is) PvP balance is brought up as a reason. The idea might be completely awesome in PvE, but due to the balance, it wont happen. PvE'ers see that enough times, and you'll have strife against the PvP crowd. I'm sure the reverse is also true, but can't speak for that side of the game without putting my foot in my mouth again.

IMO, Anet would be wiser to keep the two seperate, and not try to pull them closer. It's true you can't make everyone happy, but I see it as this:

You want to PvE - go for it. You want to PvP - go for it. You have the option to do whichever you wish. Integrate the two and you'll have PvPers "grinding" saying it's shallow and the story line stinks; while the PvEers are getting called "noobs" and their builds being called "broken" when the battle is lost. No one would be as happy as if they left them seperate.

I can almost get a laugh at this thought - Lets say they do force PvP on us in the ways mentioned above, or some other creative way. And lets say that no one leaves because of that. How many times is a player going to have to hear "noob", "your build is broken", "Why are you not using X?" or the like before they get fed up and quit? How many PvPers are going to take the below rank X on to their team? Chaos insues.

As always, that's my take and I hope I am seeing things from as many different angles as I can.

Edit: Cymboric beat me to the post, but yea, as we can see, it's the very opposite point of view.

beanerman_99 · Mar 15, 2006, 07:32 PM // 19:32

I hope that in future releases that Anet will realize the they will need to raise the level cap. Now I say this because of the way I understand Factions to be set up.

In Prophecies I have 4 lvl 20 characters with nothing left to do but PvP. I don't enjoy Pvp as it is now. So they just sit around or go out and help people complete missions/quests that I have already finished. Gets old quick.

So I get Factions and start a new character and he finishes all the missions and reaches lvl 20. Then what? Sure there may be some high level areas like Tombs and FoW to farm. Big whoop.

6 months from now Anet releases yet another chapter. Oh boy, here we go again. Start a new character, do all the missions, reach level 20...and then do nothing.

another 6 months goes by. Anet releases another chapter....Sigh, do I really want to do this again?

I want to use a character that I have invested numerous time and energy on. I kinda have an affection to them, like old friends. I hope that someday there will be new adventures for them, that there will be new rewards for them, that they continue to grow and that they LEVEL UP. Seriously, how many fricking skill points do I need??

SpeedyKQ · Mar 15, 2006, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Lots of good posts here. Anet has developed a great game where many people enjoy only PVE, many enjoy only PVP, and some enjoy both. Both parts of the game are well designed, and the great thing is that the player has the freedom to choose what they want to take part in.

Anet needs to learn that the more they try to force people to play the style they dislike, the unhappier the players will be. Their long-term strategy of "bringing the two groups closer together" is really wrong-headed.

eudas · Mar 15, 2006, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by beanerman_99

Seriously, how many fricking skill points do I need??

Enough so that you can unlock and capture every skill in the game so they're available when you get tired of PVE and go PVP...

honestly, i think that the game is geared toward pvp, and it's not a bad thing, but taking the RPG genre and building a primary PVP game out of it is a sure fire recipe to piss off the RPG crowd, who aren't very competitive, by and large. RPG'ers (at least the ones i know) tend to want more cooperative play styles, and to talk to their little friends in town, and dress their dolls.

PVP'ers, by contrast, don't really care about the genre of game, they're there for the competition. it could be chess, and they'd be competitive about it.

in short, RPG crowd is innately less competitive and is there for the RPG of the game, and the PVP crowd is more competitive and doesnt care about the genre of the game at all. it's like mixing oil and water, and wondering why it won't mix...

eudas

paulscott · Mar 15, 2006, 07:43 PM // 19:43

its not meant to take out everybuild. its to counter common ones. if a 55 hp monk pops up 12% of the time. hopefully one of the 5 semi random builds will have a counter for it.